RIP

Low

I know she said some very controversial things, but some of the things people are saying about her are brutal. Makes me sad.

wild_corgi

The rational subtext of Never Speak Ill About the Dead is because it says more about you than it does about them ...

And I'd think she'd take those brutal things in her stride - epitome of tough old broad, Joan, - and throw them back with worse, and funnier, with a full shredding of their outfit as a grace note.

Personally I liked her own wish for her funeral - I want Meryl Streep crying in five different accents.

Whickwithy

She had one of the sharpest, quickest wits I've ever seen - next to Robin Williams. Interesting that, now that I think about it.

Urban_Tribesman

Probably japing upstairs as we speak. They are in my mind. Isn't that what the afterlife is all about?

iuventus

I thought it was about gaping mindlessly into a blinding white light--much as they do down here. I'm saving my best japes for ol' Screwtape.

*crosses fingers*

iuventus · Post edited by iuventus at 2014-09-06 23:41:11

wild_corgi said:
The rational subtext of Never Speak Ill About the Dead is because it says more about you than it does about them ...

I'd guess that it's more out of superstition than anything--if you care to call that rational.

Aside from things like (a small number of) user comments on Yahoo! and the likes, I've only heard good things about Joan since her death, and a number of appropriately irreverent, but loving, jabs. However, I don't pay much attention to news/media/etc., despite my admission to happening upon certain Yahoo! user comments. There was a decent, albeit last-minute, tribute to her last night on 20/20, a news(-ish) show in the USA.

I like what Freud said about the saying De mortuis nihil nisi bonum:

"We assume a special attitude towards the dead, something almost like admiration for one who has accomplished a very difficult feat. We suspend criticism of him, overlooking whatever wrongs he may have done, and issue the command, De mortuis nil nisi bene: we act as if we were justified in singing his praises at the funeral oration, and inscribe only what is to his advantage on the tombstone. This consideration for the dead, which he really no longer needs, is more important to us than the truth, and, to most of us, certainly, it is more important than consideration for the living."

Wonder what he meant by that. Sounds like he was mocking useless superstitions, especially when they supersede common sense and rational decency; i.e., Why do we find it so easy to revere the dead while we treat our neighbors as enemies?

"While forgiving the transgressions of the dead might be important for one's own healing, forgiving those of the living would very probably heal the world." ~ Iuventus P Goodbottom

wild_corgi

Wasn't Freud dense about humans at times. Could he not get his head around the way in which absence and loss changes things more than presence? There everybody is, nibbling their funeral tea sarnies, uncomfortably aware they're inching closer to the head of the queue, desperate for a drink, grieving - and he's wondering why they're relying on basic good manners to ease the social interaction. Afterwards - well there's no point in opening or starting feuds about the deceased cos it's too late to make any difference. A convention that you can't say anything except good things is as good a way as any as closing that discussion down.

I didn't have superstition in mind: I meant that it often says far more than the Dead Person's Critic would prefer that they saved their criticism up until the person couldn't answer back, and at the same time it's revealing exactly what they criticise people for. This is almost inevitably something very small minded but which outrages the pieties of the critic, which are far more conformist than they dare to believe. How they present it also important: is it a huffy we should never ever forget [insert example proving X was human and falliable] ... or the prissy I intend to rise above this mere middle-class/Christian superstition to remind you all that in fact etc etc... or is it the faux-concerned yes yes it's a tragedy they're dead, sheesh enough already, now let's talk about something more important like their illness which I can bang on about for hours

And there were plenty of examples about Joan (and Robin) in that vein in the comments (not the obits) sections of the UK's Indy and Graun - and the comments on the comments, sheesh.

I don't mind an honest gloat - I remember one workie at college saying to another "This is the happiest day of my life: Prof [X] is dead, and you've got the sack", and I do admire the honesty of that. But then I come from a family with the peasant attitude that the first thing you discuss after condolences etc is the will and who gets what.

Nor do I mind this tribute from London Transport, which IMO is in Joan's own spirit (linky thing) but I accept that others may take a different view.

iuventus

Sounds a bit more Freudian than Freud's comment. That aside, I doubt Freud meant what he wrote as a suggestion to the contrary, i.e., that one should roast a man at his funeral or inscribe a list of his faults into his headstone. He was simply, and probably quite humorously, making a point, which I tried to rephrase above a couple times. But alas! in vain.

As for me, I would pray to the god of the Underworld that no one waste a vibration of his or her precious vocal chords paying lip service to my memory. Kick me about a bit by all means, and then sweep my ashes back into the furnace. Of course, as Freud pointed out, it's unlikely that I'd give a hair.

KatRobin

I hope this isn't tasteless or inappropriate to mention this in this thread, but I ve read the news online that Lynda Bellingham has terminal cancer and she has tweeted that she will be ceasing her chemotherapy in order to spend time with her family this Christmas before ( in her own words) she passes away in January. What an incredibly brave and strong woman. Her comments show her selflessness and empathy for others and their families in the same situation. When her time comes, may she rest in peace. She is bowing out with dignity and grace.

Urban_Tribesman

KatRobin said:
I hope this isn't tasteless or inappropriate to mention this in this thread, but I ve read the news online that Lynda Bellingham has terminal cancer and she has tweeted that she will be ceasing her chemotherapy in order to spend time with her family this Christmas before ( in her own words) she passes away in January. What an incredibly brave and strong woman. Her comments show her selflessness and empathy for others and their families in the same situation. When her time comes, may she rest in peace. She is bowing out with dignity and grace.

Sort of future rest in peace?
I've heard this thought process put forward before. Undergo months of painful chemo with your hair and other things falling out, slowly transforming into a shadow of your former self just to buy yourself a few extra months in increasing agony and despair while your family watch you slowly turn into a husk and that is how they remember you; or, you pass on the chemo, and descend quicker into what is seen as a more dignified end.
I do not know much of the different processes, but I do know that the human condition of self preservation is a fundemental and all consuming drive and you would need to have a will of iron to refuse medical treatments.
Respect Lynda. May your final months be happy ones.

iuventus

Jan Hooks?

Boo!

Pet

I was saddened to hear that Mary Cadogan has recently died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Cadogan Her books are fascinating. I once had the pleasure of riding on a train with her. She was a fine conversationalist and clearly a lovely person.

Sparky

iuventus said:
And yes, Sparky, my reaction is about me. Isn't yours about you?

Don't make presumptions about me sweetheart. I've had quite a few inbox messages echoing my distaste for you. People seem to be weary of your florid and rather pompous posts. No surprise there. Seriously, why not leave the forum and find a more productive pursuit?

And HJ, if I call someone a cun+ it's me expressing my opinion. Not name calling, but the bestowing of a title, denoting function, status and popularity.

iuventus

I like you, Sparky. I truly like you.

iuventus · Post edited by iuventus at 2014-10-18 21:22:47

<3

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