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God bless the Union?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Urban_TribesmanUrban_Tribesman
    Posts: 5,681
    With 6 weeks to go, I thought it was time that we had a thread to air some thoughts about Scottish Independance, and the up coming vote as to whether Scotland remains with England, Wales and Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom.
    Cards on the table. I am English; as far as I know pure back through a number of generations and then, eventually, some Scottish turns up before it jumps across to Norway. On my Dad's side, he had 6 brothers and sisters and one of his Sisters married a Scotsman and they lived in Glasgow. On my Mums side, she has 4 Brothers and one of them married a Scots girl (Mary Massie Morris) and they lived in a place with the wonderful name of Friday Bridge in the Fens. I, therefore, have several cousins and second and third cousins that are half and half and other percentage 'alloys' of English and Scottish.
    This alloy analogy I find quite fitting. Like an alloy, I feel we are better, stronger and more than the sum of our parts when we are melded together in the Union. Much has been said in the Yes campaign about 'us' & 'them' and trying to demonise the 'control' that is seen in some parts to emanate from Westminster, and harping back to the Highland clearances and every other perceived 'wrong' that Scotland has suffered at the hands of the English over the last 1,000 years . Well, Scotland has its own Parliment, as well as many MP's from Scottish constituencies sitting in the Westminster Parliament, where they lobby for Scottish interests. Scotland has free prescriptions, care for the elderly and many other 'breaks' that are not enjoyed by the rest of the Union. Prominent Scottish politicians have held senior ranks in the Westminster Government; Alistair Darling recently, Gordon Brown was Prime Minister for several years, along with many famous Scotsmen over the centuries before him. Hardly the litany of an oppressed people without a voice as many would purport.
    I am a proud Englishmen but, when I am abroad, and people ask me where I am from, I automatically answer 'The United Kingdom' and say I am 'British', not English for some strange reason. Scottish, Welsh and Irish proudly celebrate their Saint's days and display their national flag with conviction whereas It is suggested I am a racist if I do.
    I have had, and still have many Scottish friends and work colleagues, as well as Welsh and Irish ones and, well, I just like having you guys around.
    We share a small island kingdom and in the world we still punch well above our weight. Like most families, we do not always see eye to eye and, like my Sister and I, have fought like cat and dog at times but beyond that, we are always family and some things are just inviolate.
    That's my view. The soapbox is now free.
    Post edited by Urban_Tribesman at 2014-09-10 18:54:20
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ.
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit.
    Shall lure it back to cancal half a line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
  • 114 Comments sorted by
  • Vote Up0Vote Down KatRobinKatRobin
    Posts: 2,769
    I agree with you UT, I think we should remain united. They should Lose The Bagpipes though lol %-(
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Urban_TribesmanUrban_Tribesman
    Posts: 5,681
    KatRobin said:

    I agree with you UT, I think we should remain united. They should Lose The Bagpipes though lol %-(


    If they decide to go, we will, seriously, need to set up some trade agreement and agree to no import duties on Tunnocks!
    Forgot to say. When we were in France recently, we came back and stayed overnight in Chartes, which has a beautiful cathedral with an amazing light-show at night. While we were there, they were in the middle of a month long music festival with every kind of music you could think of played around the town at night, mostly outside. On the night we were there, the had 'Celkilt' who had featured prominently in "La France a Un Incroyable Talent"!!! (France has got talent). They were a sort of weird mixture of Gaelic rock played by men with beards and full kilt etc, with bagpipes and piccolos etc, but all delivered in French. Sort of Ceilidh with frogs legs on the buffet.
    I can stand bagpipes for a while as I am fascinated by the playing technique. The band were entertaining but rather one dimensional for my liking.
    Post edited by Urban_Tribesman at 2014-08-10 06:09:00
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ.
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit.
    Shall lure it back to cancal half a line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Appy61Appy61
    Posts: 638
    Well you've opened the Pandora's box now UT, It will be interested to see if there is any interest? I wholeheartedly agree and I have close Scottish ancestry on both side of the family also my Nephew's married a Scots lass. I am, however, fed up to the back teeth with the naive rhetoric appearing on Facebook from my Nephew's 'Yes' voting in-laws. I was so tempted yesterday to respond to his Father in Laws post extolling the virtues of a Red Arrows pass over his birthday tea venue. I so wanted to point out that this stuff would be history after independence - Scotland, I believe, wants to de-militarise - no Airforce no Red Arrows. I relented to peer pressure and wished him a "Happy birthday - seeing the Arrows is a real treat - always makes me feel proud to be British". No response yet but I guess they're too stupid to recognise the lightly cloaked dig!
    What if the Hokey Cokey is what it's all about?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down SartoriSartori
    Posts: 2,138
     The Alex Salmond line of nationalism is quite sickening to me personally , cutting off his countries nose to spite their face . This is at a time that this country (UK) is still spending vastly more than it brings in , only the low interest rates and our credit rating stop us from becoming the next Greece - this is the big issue facing the whole of the country , not some jumped up little naive twats jingoistic personal desire for a separate state using the rhetoric of hate . 
     I see the UK as a scaled up community that helps the parts in need , the economies of scale help us maintain our bills , our credit rating enables us to borrow money cheaply , our shared inputs help take care of the sick and infirm . More and more cuts will definitely be coming , we won`t want them , they will be hard to take but only together will our country work .

    ps Im half Scottish 
    Post edited by Sartori at 2014-08-10 09:25:30
    "Read my posts and see why we`re not allowed nice things anymore"
    photo 5a6eb769-bc12-4596-bbe8-709fc2bb0d5e.jpg
    "Brought to you straight from the People`s Republic of There`s Something Wrong With You . The Hoi Polloi Capital of the World"
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Appy61Appy61
    Posts: 638
    The problem is we 'English', as if arbitrary line across a map means anything, have absolutely no say in the biggest constitutional change in the last 300 years. As as for de-militarising - isn't it the Scots who just love a fight?
    What if the Hokey Cokey is what it's all about?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Urban_TribesmanUrban_Tribesman
    Posts: 5,681
    Appy61 said:

    The problem is we 'English', as if arbitrary line across a map means anything, have absolutely no say in the biggest constitutional change in the last 300 years. As as for de-militarising - isn't it the Scots who just love a fight?


    Sterotyping ! They like a drink as well.
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ.
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit.
    Shall lure it back to cancal half a line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Halloween_JackHalloween_Jack
    Posts: 2,293
    Morrissey has pledged his support for Scottish independence.

    That should help... the 'no' vote.
    Avondale guesthouse
  • Vote Up0Vote Down iuventusiuventus
    Posts: 5,377
    That sounds suspiciously like Missouri state politics, HJ.
    If I were dead, could I do this?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down whisperitwhisperit
    Posts: 641
    Morrisey says "Yes", HJ? Fuck.

    I'm all for allowing the Scots to run free. They've never voted for a Tory government - ever. But they're getting dragged rightwards by middle england along with the rest of Britain. We badly need someone/somewhere to demonstrate that increasing inequalities in wealth, increasing privatisation, demonising minorities and all the rest of the neoliberal shit is not the only way to go.
    Post edited by whisperit at 2014-08-10 15:47:41
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Appy61Appy61
    Posts: 638
    No response yet but I guess they're too stupid to recognise the lightly cloaked dig!

    Update - the chap in question 'likes' my comment - ambiguous thinking or clueless who knows!
    What if the Hokey Cokey is what it's all about?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down KatRobinKatRobin
    Posts: 2,769
    Getting quite exciting now isn't it...?! I'm just wondering what'll happen to The Union Jack if the Yes vote wins, I mean, damn....that makes a billion atlases,textbooks, my classroom display ( citizenship) , Gawd knows what else defunct! I vote that we replace the blue cross with a cosmic rainbow squiggle and have the most funky, liberal and pluralistic flag on the planet- yeah!!
  • Vote Up0Vote Down iuventusiuventus
    Posts: 5,377
    Go Ssseltiks!
    If I were dead, could I do this?
  • Vote Up0Vote Down wild_corgiwild_corgi
    Posts: 227
    It's completely wierd to me that there's so little talk about this in London unless you're amongst Scots (especially ones who can't vote in this election) and other members of the Celtic fringe. My workplace is, umm, quite into politics, but not a single bloody squeak from the workies about this.

    Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, over the weekend in Wales I had a spontaneous half-hour conversation with the chap serving in the butchers who was incredibly well-informed and very politically and economically astute.

    Whatever happens though I am convinced we should shoot all bagpipes on sight as they attempt to cross Hadrians Wall heading south.
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Urban_TribesmanUrban_Tribesman
    Posts: 5,681
    I too am surprised just how little interest there is in this South of the border.
    A little bit of research makes for interesting reading. I have heard a lot of posturing from Yes supporters about how this is their only chance in a generation to escape from the oppressive yoke of English subjugation. If an alien landed in Glasgow at the moment, he would think Scotland was a lackey vassal state. I suggest that alien should look in the history books.
    Up to 1603, England and Scotland were Independant kingdoms with their own monarchs; Elizabeth the 1st in England, James VI in Scotland. Elizabeth was the last of the Tudors, and on her death in 1603, as she died 'without issue', the English crown passed to James VI, who was a Stuart, and the Great Grandson of Margaret Tudor, older sister of Henry VIII. It was James who was the major advocate of English and Scottish political unity and one Parliment , and he ruled both England and Scotland as James I as a United Kingdom in personal union.  He even commisioned a new heraldic badge, the 'Union of Crowns' (below).
    The English and Scottish Kingdoms were officially united to form the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707 and then with the unification with the Kingdom of Ireland into the United Kingdom of Great Britian in 1801.
    So, there you have it.  It was all the idea of a Scottish King which makes the notion that the Scots were forced into this union in the past by the oppressive English as ridiculous.
    At best, it is an anti monachist view (as it was a Scottish King's desire that we were all united) and, at worst, in James' times, probably an act of treason.  And remember, it was James that had Guy Fawkes offed !

    Post edited by Urban_Tribesman at 2014-09-10 19:00:12
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ.
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit.
    Shall lure it back to cancal half a line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
  • Vote Up0Vote Down Urban_TribesmanUrban_Tribesman
    Posts: 5,681
    The man who started it all - James VI of Scotland - James I of England

    image

    And his 'Union of Crowns'

    image

    And the Coat of Arms for James VI of Scotland, used from 1603 to 1625

    image
    Post edited by Urban_Tribesman at 2014-09-10 18:10:53
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ.
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit.
    Shall lure it back to cancal half a line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
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