I wasn't making excuses for male violence Pony, but I don't think you can take the violence out of men (or 'cure' them) once they are men. If that's what you are implying? You can try and help them control it but sadly the damage was done long before they were adults (and they joined the army). The armed forces definately take advantage of that lack of empathy for other people (another whole topic), but our western society encourages that in all of us anyway. We live in such a selfish 'rather them, than us' world these days which many violent people use as a justification for violence.

I think humans have violence in them - it's almost instinct. Have you seen a 4-6 year old have a tantrum? Infact see into the mind of a parent of a 4-6yo and you will see violence (luckily it generally stays there!). Life is F**king hard in my view. Happy people are just the people who are best at coping with it. Historically men have have had the physical dominance over women to use be violence against others, and sadly like many other animals many men instinctively enjoy it. But I don't think you can just talk about the violent acts without it's context in society and just blame men.

It's like governments spending more on the police to stop crime rather than spending the money on stopping the causes of crime. But obviously for political parties that's much too complicated a concept for the average voter. Things like the wealth gap, break up of family units, declining empathy for 'other' people and breakdown of communities, etc... are the real causes. But they are hard things to fix in time for elections so instead it's easier for governments to demonise perpetrators of violent crime as caricature monsters and blame films and video games that glorify violence and bring in knee jerk polices that actually do nothing long term or make things worse.



It's funny you have these 'new men' type movie stars like Brad Pitt and they alway appear in movies with amazingly muscular bodies that normal people will never have. And this is still seen (generally) as the pinnacle of male beauty by women and men. It;s funny even in UK soap operas even the teenage boy have these amazing bodies that no real teenage boys have - even the nerdy characters. But why do the need all that muscle? It's often not needed for the role. It's not related to fitness and health - very healthy people are generally very lean. So what is all that muscle for if not to show physical dominance and the threat of violence? Is that not what subliminally women are turned on by? Obviously not You Pony :-) but you bet my point. Luckily my partner is positively turned off by body building type thing (and she is physio and a health nazi!).

Woah!!!!! I know that you must have realised the potential provocation in that last comment of yours there Tatt...but I think you've opened a can of worms....do men still believe this shit about women being turned on by the threat of violence? And more to the point...is it true? Cos if it is, then I'm in PG's camp....I think NOT. I'm sure you weren't owning that comment as your own opinion (? I hope).... But how many men really do think that way? Sometimes I just want to crawl under a rock and live life as a slug.

You know the more I think about it, I think violence is socialized through the patriarchy to keep men in control.

There was a social experiment done where adults were asked to hold infants and toddlers. They were just given the name of the child- but it was off opposite sex. Say a woman was asked to hold a little boy, but the only thing she was told was that the child's name was Jennifer. She then treated the child as if it were a girl, already declaring a role for the toddler...just by name! Men were asked to do the same and given infants and toddlers to hold but with an opposite gender name. They assigned roles as well! So we know gender roles are socialized.

Then I thought of predatory animals..and just remembered a recent incident. It concerned adult pitbulls. I visited a couple that had two male pitbulls. One came right to me and was sweet and loving, the other was kept on the porch. I wanted to pet the one outside and was told no, because he was a rescue that had been trained to fight and was too aggressive. So there you have it. Socialization. Men have been socialized towards violence to maintain the power hierarchy.

Now, what to do about it. To stop the progress of violence, it has to be taught it is wrong. Girls are taught not to fight and work things out- why are boys taught to fight? Why is fighting a thing of honor? I mean why aren't girls taught, to really be a true women you gotta knock a bitch out? It sounds crazy when you say it.

-Also, the words we use to define things. I don't know about you, but when I think of "Hero" I think of someone rescuing someone else, not killing them! I mean, when in the hell did that word change?!

@tatt I think maybe straight women might like bigger buff guys, to protect them from the other whack ones? I don't know, just a theory.

@UT Yeah, they burned a man alive in a cage. Insane. It's like the witch trials. Just horrific. It's got to stop. Well, the witch trials stopped with knowledge..maybe this terrorism can too.

Y'all are not digging deep enough.  Think root cause.

@UT Well I told you my God is just the absolute energy of Love.

The Church Patriarchy just made selfish rules to accommodate themselves. They missed the point entirely.
When Saint Augustine wrote "The Confessions" it changed the church forever. He had been in love with another man, and I believe that man hurt him emotionally then ended up dying. I think he was disgusted by Pagan Rome too. He punished everyone else by declaring sex for procreation not pleasure..even down to which sexual positions were acceptable and which weren't. Punishment bourn from his own pain. Why the church adopted this, who knows. Personally, I believe any consensual act between two (or more, haha) people with love and pleasure as the intention is not sin. I do hold sex as sacred though- people who use others just to "get off" is terrible..it lacks good intention. I could go on for days about this topic- so I'll leave it at that. (Anyone can correct me on St. Augustine..but that's what I remember)

All religions should just ask this one simple question, "is there loving intention" in what I'm doing? That way there would be no more witches, terrorists, enemies..etc. to destroy, only an understanding of what's wrong and what needs to be corrected. I know, easy to say..hard to practice such mindfulness.

@WW Tell us more. Are you trying to say because men are too insecure to let their guard down? That if they aren't the ones seen in control, then they're not real men somehow?

I read just now about this new theme park opened in America, just up the road from Disneyland , where families can " play" shooting heavy / real artillery at images of Osama Bin Laden, promoted through pictures of girls in hot pants with said guns and heavily made-up smiles. And apparently it's WOMEN who are taking this shit up in droves, cos they want to learn how to handle a gun and "protect themselves". God bless America.
Seriously, if I were a peace-seeking, articulate, intelligent and spiritually minded America....I'd emigrate. I couldn't cope.

Whickwithy said:

Nope.  Think behavioural mechanisms and not secondary or tertiary mechanisms.

@WW Don't tell me this is all leading back to sex. Ok, tell me..is it?

Hey, I don't consider myself high-minded or snooty....just afraid, powerless...like the average Jo.