tattmaylor said:

All any 'genuine' fan wants is they do something as well as they can and that 'they' are prowd of. If you are a fan you should respect them for that. In someways when you become a fan of an artist, rather than one particular record, you are investing in the artist. So real fans should give artists the chance to make a few errors and mess up now and again. It's part of taking chances 

i concur. we all do things then decide maybe we could've done it better. sometimes it takes longer to come to some conclusions than others. 

la_catalina said:

I do think they sold out, even back in supernature days they were letting the likes of ooh la la be used for tv commercials. That feels like selling out to me.

It doesn't matter whether head first was rubbish or not by Alison's own admission there was a level of compromise which given as you state they are both supposedly perfectionists seems to be again selling out.

So let's say that was one error which the fans should accept. It's not really artistic experimentation or making artistic mistakes, it is just bad management and bad decision making policy really.

But to follow head first up with what is obviously a fan pleasing record is equally indicative of compromising their artistic freedom. Like you argue yourself, Archway, it seems a very strategic choice to get fans back on board.

I feel whenever extra artistic concerns influence your work, you're done for.

Whether they are managers breathing down your neck, or fans equally breathing down your neck for another felt mountain, if you then try to meet these requirements of others, you lose your personal and artistic integrity.

I don't like putting the knife in! But these are the facts, even by Alison's own admission.

But as I said, Tales Of Us is not selling out to their fan base, because there are plenty fans who prefer Goldfrapp when they make pop records (look at reviews on Amazon for example). I believe genuinely that Tales Of Us is an album they made for themselves, returning to their roots because that is what they needed after Head First. They had to redeem themselves, and they did that with Tales Of Us. They didn't make an album purely to please their fans. They made an album to regain their condidence in their art.

By the way, I thought Goldfrapp "sold out" with Black Cherry and that the sell out continued with Supernature. Seventh Tree was a return to artistic integrity, but then Head First followed, and that was the biggest sell out. And looked what happened. If you fake it, people/fans will see through you.

la_catalina said:

I feel whenever extra artistic concerns influence your work, you're done for.

Whether they are managers breathing down your neck, or fans equally breathing down your neck for another felt mountain, if you then try to meet these requirements of others, you lose your personal and artistic integrity.

I don't like putting the knife in! But these are the facts, even by Alison's own admission.

are they facts? when did she say this? i mean i heard her say similar about HF but not TOU. she's said several times she's very proud of TOU. 

tattmaylor said:

la_catalina said:

But to follow head first up with what is obviously a fan pleasing record is equally indicative of compromising their artistic freedom. Like you argue yourself, Archway, it seems a very strategic choice to get fans back on board.

But Tales of Us is not Felt Mountain 2. They could have easily made this into Felt Mountain 2 if they wanted Goldfrapp are VERY precise. They decided (eventhough it has echoes of FM) to do something a bit different.


But this doesn't have the synth trip/hop baselines and radio friendly singles (Utopia/ Lovely Head/Pilots) or the crazy moments (oompha Radar). It is not 'the latest thing' in pop. Can't see Madonna copying this.

As a brand (marketing is one thing i do know about) Goldfrapp in some people view stand for being ahead of the game (aswell as being good at making finely crafted, dark pop songs) but this album is so retrospective (going back beyund FM). Musically it's too straight. The only way you could sell it in a marketing sense to the 'new music' fan base would be saying it's their version of the Elvis '68 Comeback Special. i.e. Lets get back on track, stick to what we know, take no risks, just do what we are good at' attitude. :-) Thats' how I see it. I'm looking forward to the next album.

To be honest I though Supernature was their 'safest album' where they took no chances and in some way it's become, over time, my least played.

I agree with this. Nothing on Tales Of Us has hit potential like Ooh La La, Number 1, Twist or train. Tales Of Us won't be able to be marketed as a pop album.


La_Catalina, you yourself even said (if I'm not mistaken), that Tales Of Us is not Felt Mountain 2. Tales draws on Felt Mountain. Many artists have drawn on their backcatalogue to regain confidence (Joni Mitchell) or progress their sounds (Portishead).

I think you should really look harder at yourself and your bitter disappointment (perhaps even hurt?) in order to get to the bottom of your issues wirh Tales Of Us and Goldfrapp's artistic integrity. There is something that you are unable to accept (perhaps for a personal reason or out of personal experience), and until you have worked through it, all you'll see is that Goldfrapp is a sell out (artistically).

Of course, you don't have to like Tales Of Us. We all have different tastes, but your comments/views on Tales Of Us speak much deeper than a mere dislike for the album, and as such, clouds your views. It's like a pessimist who can only see the bad things in the world, unable to see or even acknowledge that there is good in the world.

What is your hangup about artistic integrity really about (bear in mind that you are not - as far as I know - involved in the same situations that Alison and Will face)?

I'm not sure why you think they haven't done what they wanted with this album?

> When Alison herself admits afterwards they made bad choices on that record, it speaks for itself really.

As far as I'm aware, that was only with Head First. It would be unfair to judge them so harsly because of one error/one sell-out record.

I'll be very honest, I love Felt Mountain and I always listen to new Goldfrapp albums, but in reality, I'm probably less of a Goldfrapp fan than many people here. To date, I've only seen two Goldfrapp videos. I've not seen them live, and have never met them. I have no desire to see them live or meet them. I don't follow them in the media, and when I do read about them, it is accidentally.

I have no reason to defend their artistic integrity or Tales Of Us, because I'm not a fanatic. But I do know music, I do know artists, artistic integrity and I do know the industry (in which I worked for several years). In my view Seventh Tree has artistic integrity. If they didn't have artistic integrity, they would have continued down the line of Supernature (i.e. made another pure pop album to sell more records). In stead, they made an album that had little pop appeal. They took a risk with Seventh Tree. It was not pop and it didn't sound like everything else on the radio or in the charts. Tales Of Us is not a risk, but it's not a sell-out either, nor a compromise of their artistic integrity. It's the regaining of their artistic integrity. And who knows, it could be the starting point of a new phase, now that they have regained their confidence.

I think you are too hard / harsh on Goldfrapp, and that says something about you. I think you need to look deeper at the disappointment you feel Goldfrapp caused you, because at the end of the day, it's not about them, it's about you. What you feel and how you deal with those feelings.

Let me ask you genuinely, if you feel so bitterly disappointed by Goldfrapp (because they sold-out, or compromised their artistic integrity), why do you return to them? Why not just draw a line under the experience and accept that it is over, like a relationship that's come to an end? Why torture yourself be returning to the disappointment? You have already concluded that they have little or no artistic integrity left (partly because of bad management decisions), and it seems little is going to change your mind on that one, so why expect them to change then? Do you hang on to some kind if hope that they will break free from the constraints of the industry and record an album that will please you? We know that it is highly unlikely, because even if they were truly independent, they might still disappoint you (or me for that matter). Which brings me back to the point, it is really about you (just like it is about me, when I'm unable to except something).

I approve of L.A. Cats initial post about sellout, it was also a piece of self questioning rhetoric, in parts persuasive and parts of searching questions of not only herself . In short, it's what a discussion forum ismissing....discussion .

Have they 'sold out' ? Well if they see themselves as a "brand" then yes , which is a word I hate and equate to "money over content" .

I look at them but don't see why content of any era should correlate to "sell out" . Head First was just an album that musically didn't appeal to me, I can expand but I'd really be just talking my taste more than anything .
I would say that the band have made an album they wanted to make, something that aligned with their own musical loves and tastes - if an artist has the chance to escape any preconceptions of what they will deliver and they give that tribute to music they love, what happiness they must feel that their fans are willing to invest their love in that work.

I would say that's how my head sees it, but I dinnae think like that , for music I let the music speak/sing for itself - ethics and integrity mean f' all if the product isn't to your taste.

tattmaylor said:

To be honest I though Supernature was their 'safest album' where they took no chances and in some way it's become, over time, my least played.

Same here.  Loved SN when it was hot off the press, but now it's my least played... yes, it fits into the genre of BC and HF, but i see something sexier, sensual, more sophisticated in BC than in SN...  indeed, it is interesting to see how their catalogue is essentially a pendulum... my favs in this order:

FM
TOU (though it's approaching toward a shared top spot)
BC
ST
HF
SN