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Halloween_Jack

There is a huge number of wondrous phenomena in the universe - many as yet unexplained. These give me (and I assume other atheists) a sense of euphoria and... gratefulness-for-existing. I do not see any evidence of, or need for - a god.

Urban_Tribesman

Halloween_Jack said:
There is a huge number of wondrous phenomena in the universe - many as yet unexplained. These give me (and I assume other atheists) a sense of euphoria and... gratefulness-for-existing. I do not see any evidence of, or need for - a god.

Well said young man.

Ponygurl

Halloween_Jack said:
There is a huge number of wondrous phenomena in the universe - many as yet unexplained. These give me (and I assume other atheists) a sense of euphoria and... gratefulness-for-existing. I do not see any evidence of, or need for - a god.

Unfortunately Humankind has very little grasp on the visible, physical world..let alone the invisible, spiritual one. Perhaps a search for God is just an attempt to find a benevolent and loving force in the world when faced with an unjust or cruel reality..a cry for something above the self-serving laws of man. It is all energy exchange- we are co-creators of this world. Your beliefs create the world you exist in.

Whickwithy · Post edited by Whickwithy at 2015-05-05 22:01:47

Urban_Tribesman said:
I do believe in a force that is behind all we know.

That sounds like theism to me. Just not a graybeard.

Urban_Tribesman said:
Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Well, that's just wrong, according to alot of physics theories. Black holes and singularities, for instance.

whisperit said:
You can believe anything, provided you don't believe that there is a god.

So, one just can't believe that everything was created by something other than random events? Once can believe there is more to the universe than atoms and molecules? One can believe in the spirit? One can believe that the spirit goes on when life in this existence ends? My mistake. It doesn't much add up to me, but okay. It also doesn't really add up to much to me. What if one believes that our composite spirit is god? Does that, then make one theist?

whisperit

Whickwithy said:
You can believe anything, provided you don't believe that there is a god.

So, one just can't believe that everything was created by something other than random events? Once can believe there is more to the universe than atoms and molecules? One can believe in the spirit? One can believe that the spirit goes on when life in this existence ends? My mistake. It doesn't much add up to me, but okay. It also doesn't really add up to much to me. What if one believes that our composite spirit is god? Does that, then make one theist?

"Deism" usually means a belief in one or more supernatural being(s) which created the Universe, and which continues to exist, but which does not intervene in how things work out from there on. Its existence is deduced through observation of the natural world, rather than through personal "revelation". I can't think of any organised religion which is strictly deistic.

"Theism" usually requires a belief in one or more supernatural being(s) which created the Universe, and which (usually) intervene in its operation, including through personal relationships with individual humans. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, are examples of theistic belief systems.

Atheism just means that you don't believe that the Universe was created by a supernatural being, or that such a thing exists.

Your questions about the creation of the universe questions about spirits, etc are all interesting, but atheism has NOTHING to say about them, apart from, "whatever, there is no god".

(individual atheists will have their own answers, some of which you might find satisfying, some of which you might find bonkers - but there is no unified "Atheist Theory of the Origin of the Universe", no "Atheist Theory of the Afterlife" etc)

whisperit

Ponygurl said:

Unfortunately Humankind has very little grasp on the visible, physical world..let alone the invisible, spiritual one. Perhaps a search for God is just an attempt to find a benevolent and loving force in the world when faced with an unjust or cruel reality..a cry for something above the self-serving laws of man.

As someone once said,

"Religious distress is both an expression of real distress, and a protest against it...it is the sigh of the oppressed, the heart of a heartless world, the soul of a soulless situation, the opium of the people...to be truly happy, we should abolish the religious illusion of happiness to come in the afterlife...the demand to give up religious illusions is the demand to get rid of the condition that requires illusions....we should remove the imaginary flowers on the chains that we bear, not so that we can bear the chain without consolation, but so that we can throw off the chain and pluck the living flower."

Whickwithy

whisperit said:
happiness to come in the afterlife

Altogether, that's one fine quote. That piece about happiness in the afterlife really chimes, though. That is why I prefer the thought of reincarnation. With most religions, the feeling is we're screwed until after we die, so put up with it. Reincarnation (well, maybe that and karma) requires that you do your damnedest in this life for it to improve in the next. It also gives a really good incentive for taking good care of this world and improving mankind's sanity since you're going to be back at it again in the near future.

(Thanks for the insights in reply to my message, as well).

whisperit

Cheers, ww. I'm afraid I do get a bit preachy from time to time

Whickwithy

I like discussions where there is a point, an exchange of ideas and such.

I must say, though, that I am more and more skeptical of the whole atheist idea. Right up there with existentialism and solipsism for resembling a treadmill. Self-actualization rather than existentialism, agnosticism rather than atheism, and the greater good rather than solipsism.

Ponygurl

whisperit said:

Ponygurl said:

Unfortunately Humankind has very little grasp on the visible, physical world..let alone the invisible, spiritual one. Perhaps a search for God is just an attempt to find a benevolent and loving force in the world when faced with an unjust or cruel reality..a cry for something above the self-serving laws of man.

As someone once said,

"Religious distress is both an expression of real distress, and a protest against it...it is the sigh of the oppressed, the heart of a heartless world, the soul of a soulless situation, the opium of the people...to be truly happy, we should abolish the religious illusion of happiness to come in the afterlife...the demand to give up religious illusions is the demand to get rid of the condition that requires illusions....we should remove the imaginary flowers on the chains that we bear, not so that we can bear the chain without consolation, but so that we can throw off the chain and pluck the living flower."

It is real distress..but change comes very slow. The above statement is an illusion in that it implies the selfish nature of man can be easily changed. What is missing is the context of change. Change must happen energetically through change in the 'Belief' system. We must become teachers, even preachers. Change has to be taught and followed through. Can a species destroy itself by it's own greed? Yes, there is no question. Can any path be changed? Yes, but requires an encompassing upstanding. I believe a true religious nature is natural within the Human Species- we can look to all the religions of the world and see it. It is a need to make sense of and correct suffering. There needs to be a massive correction in regards to life. A simple respect of other races and the natural world around us. Respect for all life must be taught- an energetic shift in perception. Respect must overcome the self-serving destructive force within man. It can only be done by a shift in belief- and belief systems must be learned.

whisperit

Ponygurl said:
Change has to be taught and followed through...and belief systems must be learned.

This seems true. The hard thing is that a changed belief system must start somewhere.

Most religion seems to designate a single person as a role model to be followed. Funny enough, it nearly always turns out to be a man (Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Dalai Lama, Rev Moon...the list goes on). That in itself tells you there is something fishy about that whole concept.

The alternative is to develop a way of life for a whole community that promotes "learning" alternative belief systems through lived experience.

That is much more appealing, and more plausible, to me. But there are also lots of failed attempts at this too....

Whickwithy · Post edited by Whickwithy at 2015-05-07 19:48:20

Urban_Tribesman

All that we see or seem, is but a dream, within a dream.

Urban_Tribesman

Funny thing is, I was bought up a Christian, was baptised, went to Sunday school. I even have a bible I was awarded with my name in it. I actually love being in Churches. I find then serene and calming. Hagia Sophia in Istanbul is one of the most fascinating places I have been in during my life. St Peter's in Rome is similar; both places of majesty and beauty.
Unfortunately, neither of them make me feel in anyway connected to a God. Religious fervour has been responsible for countless, unspeakable atrocities throughout the ages, and this continues today. I, for one, am sick of it and will no longer be part of the herd mentality. It's my view, I am entitled to it, as anyone else is theirs.
If all religious groups were happy with this view and confident that they were correct and when we die we all experiance the 'well fuck me - they were right all along' moment then the world would be a better place IMHO.
Instead, we get countless barbaric acts carried out every day in the name of some God or creed or belief system; which I think is borne out of a profound fear by the perpetrators that they are actually wrong.
Any religion that countenances brutality and supports violence and atrocities against others is a shit religion and that is about all of them except Buddahism.
Perhaps I'm a Buddist? No, I like beef burgers so that's a bust as well !

Whickwithy

It seems the UK political process is working just about as well as the U.S.
version. I hate to endorse a conspiracy theory but it seems to me that
the conservative parties have found a way to rig the system. In the
U.S., at least, it is fairly straightforward. Bombard the public with
outright lies that can be believed (do it often enough, it seems, and
the public actually starts agreeing (there is little doubt they will be
listening/watching) - kinda like religion used to be. Talk radio, in the U.S., is apalling. Otherwise intelligent people in the U.S., nod their heads as if it makes sense. Which is another
interesting point. Religion has gone out of fashion with those that
wish to manipulate and mislead the public. Who needs religion anymore,
not opportunists, when they have TV and Radio to distort reality!

No, there's something much more deeply wrong with humanity that religion, etc. They are just the fall guys. We need to go much deeper than that before we find the source of our problems.

Howdy, Stranger!

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