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Sartori

Pet said:
I think the stiff upper lip thing applies to the upper and upper middle class. (Especially the officer class of the army, formerly administrators in India, etc.) I don't think that persons of working class origin (like me) are supposed to maintain a stiff upper lip.

It`s not for plebs . But being "working class" is now defined by having a TV wider than your bookshelf , so I`m afraid you probably don`t fall into that section of society any more .

Pet

Sartori said:

Pet said:
I think the stiff upper lip thing applies to the upper and upper middle class. (Especially the officer class of the army, formerly administrators in India, etc.) I don't think that persons of working class origin (like me) are supposed to maintain a stiff upper lip.

It`s not for plebs . But being "working class" is now defined by having a TV wider than your bookshelf , so I`m afraid you probably don`t fall into that section of society any more .

I've taken a tape measure to my television and some bookcases. I have at least three bookcases narrower than my television, although (obviously) the TV is not as wide as my wider bookcases.

I did write "working class origin". My father was a woodcutting machinist. During my childhood, he worked on cabinets for Ekco televisions (not as wide as modern TVs and housed in cabinets made from plywood, chipboard, veneer, plus a bit of beech and pine). He suffered three industrial accidents in which he lost two fingers from each hand. (Two from the left in separate circular saw accidents and two from his right in a single accident with a mechanical chisel.) He was a union man, a member of NUFTO (the National Union of Furniture Trade Operatives) serving, at different times, as both shop secretary and shop steward. I think (and hope) my background exempts me from any suspicion of stiff upper lip nonsense.

My point, really, for the benefit of Americans who might otherwise draw wrong conclusions, was that the stiff upper lip was at least as much a matter of social class as nationality. The vast majority of British people would never have aspired to a stiff upper lip. A great many of them would have seen something comical, rather than admirable, in the idea.

Sartori · Post edited by Sartori at 2014-12-29 09:11:55

My answer wasn`t a serious one that could withstand the rigours of a battle of semantics or detail if you didn`t realise . The concept of "being working class" (to me) is an anachronism and something that is reeled out as a badge of pride as if it somehow conveys a sense of "being real" to its user . Working classes of the time were only allowed to be `stoic` as they were too poor and proud to afford more letters to describe their withstandingness . The upper classes meanwhile , still mistakenly generalise the rest of us as the "hoi polloi" when they really mean "peasant scum" .

In these days and times though , I`d certainly use "stiff upper lip" in a sentence , albeit as a pisstake .

Whickwithy

Have any of y'all watched Downton Abbey? It's quite popular in the U.S. I rather enjoy it in most instances, even though it seems like a soap opera in many ways and has some depressing qualities. Anyways, I was wondering, since it is set in England, what y'all thought of it? Did it describe the times fairly accurately? One thing concerning Monarchies (interestingly enough, worldwide) I've always been fascinated with is the idea that, at least, there was an attempt to encourage good manners and all of the redeemable values of humanity and wondered if I was completely wrong about that. Whereas I view our current capitalism and corrupt attempts at democracies as encouraging sociopathy and avarice and the dehumanization of society. It may appear to many that this belongs in the "Rant" section and maybe so, but it seemed to suit this category better and I don't think I rant much. I just explore concepts.

Pet · Post edited by Pet at 2014-12-30 07:42:15

@Sartori You really shouldn't write "the hoi polloi". The word "hoi" (Greek) means "the". "Polloi" is "many" (or "majority"), so "hoi polloi" = the many; whereas "the hoi polloi" = the the many.

@Whickwithy No, I've never watched Downton Abbey, but I have the impression that I'm exceptional in this regard. Your description of it as "like a soap opera in many ways and has some depressing qualities" squares with my impression of it (gleaned, somehow, without troubling to watch the thing). I dislike soap operas, and dislike depressing things -- so, for me, avoiding Downton Abbey was a no-brainer.

Whickwithy · Post edited by Whickwithy at 2014-12-30 08:58:58

@pet I'm glad you conveyed how my comment was construed because I need to clarify. While it has some of the characteristics of a soap opera, it's not nearly as bad. And, I agree, that there are enough of depressing things in real life that they don't need to be repeated in entertainment. Sometimes it feels like they want to make sure that you don't forget...not likely. So, no, on the whole, Downton Abbey is stellar. The one depressing point about the show is a case of rape (it seems like every historical piece feels the need). But, it was handled so admirably that I can't even fault it for that. Somehow, the show does a great job of showing the better qualities of man (hence, my question about historical accuracy - were the days of Monarchy worthwhile, at all, at encouraging the redeeming qualities of man or not?), and has an overall life-affirming sense. It really is one of the best shows I've seen in ages. While the rapist wasn't drawn and quarter (which, in itself doesn't quite seem harsh enough for the transgression), he was dealt with and everything finally righted itself as best as can be expected. Dame Maggie Smith's character is absolutely breath-taking, brilliantly played and makes one want to cheer for her. Actually, there are quite a few characters like that: faults acknowledged but overcome. No, I strongly recommend the show.

Sartori

What this forum is *missing is more anal patronisation ;)

*not missing

iuventus · Post edited by iuventus at 2014-12-30 14:56:18

In English, 'hoi polloi' may be understood as a single morpheme; hence, either form is acceptable usage. The phenomenon is not unheard of with loanwords.

Seriously, language changes. Do we criticize people for saying 'an apron' instead of 'a napron'? 'An orange' instead of 'a norange'?

Urban_Tribesman

Live and let live. We all mangle our language at times; especially Brits with English that is a real magpie of a language; stealing the glitter and sparkle from all the others, and what is wrong with that? Language is about communication and as long as as the message is conveyed, then it is fine by me.
It is these difference in the way we speak and write that makes our communications so interesting. As I said in a post yesterday, every day's a school day. When I was a kid, one of our neighbours boarded an American couple, which was rare in the late 60's. They were so amused at the way I spoke they recorded me to 'play to the folks back home'. God knows what I sounded like. I was bought up in the Fens ( with our Warsps and where thing are 'knowen' which still causes amusement even now) and I was moved at the age of 5 to the London borough of Clacton on Sea, where men were 'blokes' and dodgy blokes were 'Geezers'.
I must have sounded like a refugee from Mary Poppins. I wonder where those tapes are now?

Whickwithy · Post edited by Whickwithy at 2014-12-30 20:41:31

Geez. and I was about to ask if they dubbed in English for American movies in Britain. When I was a kid, I pronounced ready as raydy and egg as aygg. I'm sure there were some other disasters but those were the ones I remember. Now, that I've lived deep south and far north, it's probably a total abortion.

By the way, I thought the anal patronization referred to was my reply to Pet.

Pet · Post edited by Pet at 2014-12-31 05:42:11

Language changes, of course. But I think that, when we use a foreign phrase in an unchanged form, we should be aware of what the foreign words mean. To do otherwise seems to me both ignorant and impolite toward the speakers of another language. "The hoi polloi" suggests that the writer is unaware that "hoi" is the Greek for "the". A close parallel would be calling Mussolini "The il Duce". It seems to me significantly different from writing, for example, "the alcohol". It's true that the first two letters of "alcohol" are "the" in Arabic, but the Arabic phrase 'al kohl', from which 'alcohol' stems, has -- in passing into English -- changed in both its form and its meaning. (The Arabic refers to the stuff used as eye makeup, not the squiffle juice which is sure to be widely consumed to excess this evening.)

The change in the indefinite article from "a norange" to "an orange" seems to me an unrelated matter. One might as well cite the abandonment of most English 'n' plurals -- such shifts as 'shoon' becoming 'shoes' and 'treen' 'trees'.

I don't see why any of this should be controversial. Crumbs! I think that an appropriate response to what I posted about "hoi polloi" would have been: "I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me."

Pet

"Anal patronisation" seems to me mere vulgar abuse, better ignored no matter to whom it was addressed.

iuventus · Post edited by iuventus at 2014-12-31 06:57:03

Pet, there are no speakers of Ancient Greek; the Spirits of the ancient Greeks won't be offended. By now, they've transcended beyond such human pettiness. But should today's Greeks argue that we're impolite (that's putting it mildly) for pronouncing it 'hoy pə-LOY' instead of 'ee po-lEE'? Such matters were the basis of many an argument in my first-year Greek classes. Most native speakers of Greek stormed off dropped after the first semester because they refused to accept that the influence of their conquerors had greatly affected their language. "Greek was the first language." "We always pronounced it this way." "You must read very small books."

Pet said:
The change in the indefinite article from "a norange" to "an orange" seems to me an unrelated matter. One might as well cite the abandonment of most English 'n' plurals -- such shifts as 'shoon' becoming 'shoes' and 'treen' 'trees'.

It would be quite unrelated if we were weren't discussing language changes in loanwords or how we perceive articles in loanwords. The (de)evolution of English plurals is not, however, directly related to changes in loanwords, or how we perceive articles in them.

Urban_Tribesman

@Pet
I am now interested in your term 'squiffle juice' ( which my constant companion, Msr Spell Check has tried to change to Squirrel Juice - something different entirely). Around these parts, we refer to 'being squiffy' which would expand out to squiffy juice no doubt, but 'squiffle' is a variant I have not seen before. Can you expand?

Happy new year a squiffle juice all round to everyone tonight. Apparantly, in Australia and about, they are already into the squiffle juice and go 2015 in about 2 hours 30 minutes.

iuventus

Urban_Tribesman said:
...in Australia and about, they are already into the squiffle juice and go 2015 in about 2 hours 30 minutes.

I think that 'squiffle' is Maori for 'the'; so, basically, you're saying 'the the juice.'

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